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It's how you learned your first language!

I was a baby when I learned my first language, you?

L1 = First/Native language
L2 = Second Language a post pubescent person is trying to "obtain"

quote from below: "This does NOT mean that I think everything has to be learned consciously, through rules and explanations. It means only that it is foolish and even DISHONEST to claim that a foreign language can be learned in anything like the same way children appear to acquire their [first language]."

All these guys I admire are usually ESL/EFL linguists - however the concepts are for any language.

This is an excerpt from Robert O'Neill (http://www.eslminiconf.net/april/oneill.html)

"The single most important issue in my opinion is the distinction - the PROFOUND difference - between L1 ACQUISITION and L2 LEARNING. As Chomsky once said "You simply cannot teach a foreign language to an adult the way a child learns a language. That's why it's such a hard job." And by that I think Chomsky meant that's why it's a hard job BOTH for the adult and the teacher. It's a hard job but it can also be very rewarding - for both learner and adult. And what Chomsky says may SEEM obvious - but it isn't, because the main trend in methodology is still AWAY from the idea that there is this profound difference between ACQUIRING and LEARNING. Acquisition is GENETICALLY TRIGGERED and largely BIOLOGICAL in nature. All over the world, children go through very predictable stages of acquiring their L1 - they all go through the same stages and by the time they are about 5 or perhaps a little older - the FOUNDATIONS of comptence are in place - and then after another 7 years or so, they have in at least one sense become what you might call MATURE speakers of that language - mature in the sense that although nobody can say 'I've learned all there is to know that really matters about my language' (I am almost 70 and would never say such a thing) - a child of 12 or 13 COULD say (but probably would never say) that 'I have an instinctive, intuitive grasp of how my language works, its syntax,and so on. I can intuitively and instictively tell you whether or not a particular utterance is possible in my language, even if I am still not an adult.'

Now, L2 LEARNING is not genetically triggered or biologically driven in ANY WAY. There seems to be a'cut-off' point for L1 acquisition - at or just around puberty - and for various reasons, after that point, it is impossible for most people - perhaps all people - to ACQUIRE language (there may be a very few exceptions). It can only be learned. I don't see why we should be afraid of the word LEARN. I don't understand why so many teachers shy away from using that word. They aren't squeamish about saying 'I'd like to learn to play a musical instrument' or 'My 15-year-old daughter is learning to drive' and so on.

But in ESL and EFL teaching, the words 'learn' and 'learning' are viewed with great suspicion. The terms 'acquire' and 'acquisition' have far more intuitive appeal because they suggest a 'natural' or 'nativist' process, similar to if not exactly identical with the way children become competent native-speakers. And this also explains the popularity of other claims or current ideas such as 'the process of learning a foreign language can and should be much more like the process of L1 acquisition' and 'language is merely an instrument of communication'; two beliefs I regard as naive and childish.

This distrust of learning also helps to explain the intuitive appeal of methods that claim to lead to the acquisition of English through 'authentic communicative-tasks that re-create the natural conditions that favour L1 acquisition'. I have come to regard such claims with deep distrust. Even if we could re-create in a classroom more or less the same conditions that are thought to promote first-language acquisition, (which, by the way, would require at least 8,000 hours or more of deep engagement with the language - because that is what all native-speakers get - and more - while acquiring their L1), those 'natural conditions' would no longer be appropriate for learners past puberty, the point at which there is a 'natural' cut-off point for 'acquisition' as opposed to 'learning'. The human brain is just not the same any more after that point. Acquisition is a process that is not only favoured by an immature brain; it actually REQUIRES such a brain. Learning is a process that is favoured by more mature brains, learners past puberty.

This does NOT mean that I think everything has to be learned consciously, through rules and explanations. It means only that it is foolish and even DISHONEST to claim that a foreign language can be learned in anything like the same way children appear to acquire their L1. Even 'unconscious' learning is different once you have passed puberty. And it also means that CERTAIN KINDS of conscious learning can and do promote real learning for most if not all learners past puberty - and that teachers should be able among other things to explain and elucidate some of the formal features of a foreign language that at first seem so impenetrable to so many learners (things like tense and aspect and how in a language like English, word-order functions also as a case-marker system.)

In short, if we ACCEPT that we are teachers of a foreign language - that it is a hard job for both teacher and learner but that it CAN be enormously rewarding if we are prepared as learners to develop good study habits - and if we are prepared as teachers to accept that there is no magic method, and no SINGLE method or 'approach' that can possibly work in all circumstances, we may be able to break out of such childish and sterile dogmas as 'teacher-centred is BAD' and 'learner-centred is GOOD' and also be able to understand why we cannot expect our students to do what children acquiring an L1 do. The two things are just completely different and anybody who doesn't understand that is just hopelessly confused."

By rocinante on May 28, 2008, 16:37 in Learn Spanish.

rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 16:37:

By the way I don't totally endorse EVERYTHING by Robert O'Neill, nor Stephen Krashen nor VanPatten, nor Chomsky.,

For the record I believe in a quantitative approach to gaining L2.

However for the record, if one is buying software or taking a class with a tagline of "It's how you learned your first language" I got news for you. They are lazy teachers and software writers who are marketing to the "Give me a pill that will teach me the language without any effort". It’s easy to hire teachers who are native speakers to get up in front of a class to point to photos and ramble on in their native language for 2 hours. Not to say that this is totally bad, but if that’s all you got – good luck.

"No grammar, no boring drills, no exercises" = No language unless you are fully immersed for 12 years.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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goin_south says on May 28, 2008, 16:59:

A bit of a side-comment, if I may:

Maybe the Most Remarkable thing, Neurolinguistically-shpppeaking, is "How a Child Grows Becomes Naturally Bi- or Tri-Lingual, naturally from the time they are a toddler.

I think there are some here on this board, that fit that description and maybe they have some insight.

I don't mean to hi-jack your thread, roci.
Your post is about a very complex and interesting item... as I struggle to feel a little more than as an idiot many times... so, jajaa.. they are at english class as I write...

As I listen - with them - to some of the latin channels, now ... I remember how I recognized zero-to-nothing, three short years ago, and understand substantially more, now as I have surrounded myself casually with a little dose of spanish every day.

Where do we go from here?

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goin_south says on May 28, 2008, 17:02:

(damn; I guess peter succumbed to your request to severely shorten the edit time... I think I got all of less than a minute, there.... what gives? I thought people at least deserved to be able to make grammatical - or other, whateva - corrections for a moment. Or, is this a special affect de rocinante??)

Where do we go from here?

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 18:09:

GS between you and me Peter has a timed process running every hour on the hour - so you got a minute with your 6:59 post. When I post and I see it is 5 mins or less to the hour hour I hold off so that I have more time. This timed script is a mickey mouse way of doing it but hey - I've been overly critical of the programming on this site so why stop now!

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 18:23:

The amazing thing is not that children can be easily be trilingual - but that they don't confuse the three languages AND they don't have accents - or acquire the accents of the native speakers.

This has always amazed me. They say that if the parents speak Greek to the child, the nanny speaks Spanish and they live in the US (so all the friends and TV are in english) that the child is able to segregate the languages even though they are stored in the same part of the brain. I can't figure out why. They say that adults store the second language in a different part of the brain. How scientists know what's where in the brain without doing a labotomy makes me suspicious.

I did have a bilingual friend whose 3 year old daughter would substitute the Spanish word for the English word although the sentence was in English - but both parents were bilingual and spoke both to the child. My guess was the child's command of sentence structure in both English and Spanish was equally developed and normal for both languages at her age - however when saying "I don't want to eat any torta I just want ice cream" that she just didn't know the word 'cake' and grabbed the English counterpart. If both parents spoke only Spanish and she was speaking to her teacher in English I think she would ask how to say 'cake' without substituting torta, knowing that her teacher does not know the words stored in her brain's Spanish cubbyholes.

When I have kids they will learn 3 languages. English, Spanish and Pig Latin.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Portena says on May 28, 2008, 18:54:

Rocinante, I think one way they (probably neurologists, neuropsychologists, and speech therapists) determine where in the brain certain info is stored is to study people who have had strokes. I read an interesting article about a bilingual individual who had a stroke that affected the speech center of his brain I believe he maintained his first language (Spanish) better than his second language (English) even though he was using English much more than Spanish as an adult. I will have to look for that study - read it several months ago.

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Portena says on May 28, 2008, 19:00:

Language - Selective Anomia in a Bilingual Patient

Mario F. Mendez, M.D., Ph.D., UCLA School of Medicine
J. Neuropsychiatry Clin Neuroscience, Nov 2000

neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/12/4/515

Interesting article!

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 19:21:

Porteña thanks, this is awesome. I will look this up on line. Yeah it makes definite sense that your first or prebupescent languages are stored in a different part of your brain than you second or post pubescent languages. Maybe things you learn at a very young age are better protected or more in the core - such as motor activity and involuntary mechanisms such as digestion. Of course we've seen stroke wipe out this stuff as well so who knows.

I was thinking that some folks may have had sections of their brain removed due to tumors and cancer and this has proved helpful in mapping just what is where.

I am off to find this article.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 19:30:

From the aritcle

"A second potential mechanism is a disproportionate vulnerability of the second language, which is more lexically based, than the first language, which is more conceptually based."

Lexically vs. conceptually. Recall that while acquiring your first language most if not all words are being introduced to the learner twofold - the word and the word as representation of concept. When learning a second language we already know what the ocean is - as opposed to our mother's telling us "That's the ocean". Perhaps the concept of learing something for the first time coupled with it's linguistic representation (the word itself - Lexically AND conceptually) causes it to be stored in the brain in a different way and perhaps in a different spot?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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CatGirl says on May 28, 2008, 19:31:

Thanks Rociante...Especially the comment about children not picking up the Native accents. I pick up languages very quickly (spoken) when immersed and am "almost" trilingual ;)....lost many languages over the years. When I was young enough to speak my Primary language, my mother bought me an educational toy that taught me 4 differnt languages (don;t recall I was very young)..not sure if that limbered my language synapses, jaja. Some people do really have trouble learning languages (even when immersed) - I have found these types of people to have a common personality characteristic .. the inability or difficulty putting themselves in another person's situation. ;)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Portena says on May 28, 2008, 19:38:

Perhaps the concept of learning something for the first time coupled with it's linguistic representation (the word itself - Lexically AND conceptually) causes it to be stored in the brain in a different way and perhaps in a different spot?

Yes, that is one of the main/most popular hypotheses. Just need more research. :)

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 19:43:

Cat Girl - Children do pick up the native accent - the accent of the speakers in my example - Greek, Spanish and English. I had a friend who's wife was Puerto Rican. Their sons spent a lot of time at home with mommy. They spoke english with a Spanish accent because that's the way mommy spoke.

I think a child exposed to more than one language acquires them the same way and stores them all in the same spot - not by choice mind you. I doubt recieving an educational toy would limber someone up for learing languages as an adult, just as learning 2 languages as a child would not cause the adult to have a knack for languages - although speeding through the new vocabulary as an adult could be easier if the earlier languages share a good amount of words (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese) and or concepts (subjunctive, gender agreement, adjective placement in romance languages).

I think people who have a dificulty in learning a second language have traits from a multitude of things - namely motivation, lack of respect/alignment for the teacher, culture or people with whom they are immersed/learing from, overwhelmed by such a daunting task, slow to see results (not the fault of the learner, just the nature of the beast) and the biggest peeve, the learner doesn't need to really learn the language because their native language is a crutch and ever prevalent in almost everything they do.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 19:48:

However addressing my middle paragraph - a bilingual friend of mine here in Colombia (native Spanish speaker who is fluent in English as well) had difficulty with the French Subjunctive, even though it is used less in French and totally exists in Spanish.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 19:52:

Porteña - no more reseach for me tonight. But a parting thought. If adults could somehow gain the ability to forget about thngs they already know and ACT as if they are learing this a new (That's an ocean) than maybe they can grasp quicker and for longer?

Have you ever read a book or viewed a move for the second time but brainwashed yourself to experience it as if it were the first time?

I know this all is a wild stretch ("That's a cow!") and I hope I can find the FarSide comic to go with the cow...

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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CatGirl says on May 28, 2008, 19:55:

Sorry Roci, guess I read this and took it incorrectly

"The amazing thing is not that children can be easily be trilingual - but that they don't confuse the three languages AND they don't have accents - or acquire the accents of the native speakers"

When I read it I thought Hmmm??...my bad ..I think aja...maybe I need to check my funhouse eye.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 20:07:

Sorry - I meant that to read "they don't confuse the three languages AND they don't have [foreign] accents - they acquire the accents of the native speakers"

In other words the American children with the Spanish nanny have the accent in Spanish that the nanny has - meaning that their accent is no accent. They don't have a US accent just because they are US citizens living in the US while acquiring the Spanish language from the nanny.

Sometimes a foreign accent means no accent and sometimes it means the authentic accent. I'm tired - go fix tht funhouse eye.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Portena says on May 28, 2008, 20:15:

Different people probably do better with different learning modalities (some are more visual and some are more verbal). So one person might learn quicker from a video showing the language in action whereas someone else might do better with a lecture or reading stories and articles in the language they are trying to learn. The human brain has a lot of plasticity in childhood (it can be flexible as to what part of the brain takes over certain functions), but functions are fairly predictably organized after that. So, for example, a young child could have a severe injury to the left hemisphere where language functions usually take place and the right hemisphere might actually take over the language functions.

With regard to your question:

If adults could somehow gain the ability to forget about thngs they already know and ACT as if they are learing this a new (That's an ocean) than maybe they can grasp quicker and for longer?

I think the issue is more that the adult brain is already organized in a certain way so (if one could choose to forget about things they already know), I don't think it would make a difference.

Anyway, that's the kind of question that launches a research project. I suppose, for research purposes, hypnosis might offer a way for adults to forget what they already know.

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 20:17:

Or lots of booze before class

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on May 28, 2008, 20:20:

But seriously there may be "other tags" of importance added to the whatever is learned making recall easier - regardless of where it's stored, based on how it was visualized or conceptualized at the time of introduction.

Most communicative classes use music, photos, role play, musical chairs etc... to basically throw every type of stimulus to the learner during the process. It is believed that this attaches a significance that aids in learning. Who knows?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Portena says on May 28, 2008, 20:25:

Most communicative classes use music, photos, role play, musical chairs etc... to basically throw every type of stimulus to the learner during the process. It is believed that this attaches a significance that aids in learning. Who knows?

Yes, those strategies definitely enhance memory!

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houstongal says on May 28, 2008, 20:44:

Those strategies are also because it's much more fun than watching someone stand in the front of the room and talk for 8 hours. That's the worse type of class ever.

Thus you have to have about 20 minutes talk then do something. Whether it's read a passage, role play, break up into small groups for an exercise or just interact with the learners. It's just good instructional design.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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houstongal says on May 28, 2008, 21:40:

Good instructional design will also have the instructor repeat the same message in multiple ways (such as verbally and visually) and multiple times. Is it 5-7 times that you have to repeat before something sinks in? It's some figure like that.

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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Portena says on May 28, 2008, 21:52:

Is it 5-7 times that you have to repeat before something sinks in? It's some figure like that.

Sounds right to me, HG.

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houstongal says on May 29, 2008, 07:07:

I'm now in my office and I just realized I have a book titled "Designing Effective Instruction" from back when I worked in training.

What I like about the book is the chapter on Strategies and its prescriptions for teaching different areas - facts, concepts, principles and rules, procedures, interpersonal skills, and attitudes. The strategy used will differ depending on the objective the instructor is trying to achieve.

I'm supposed to create a training program this summer.... this thread reminded me that I should review this book before tackling this project. Thanks!

"It is now official: there's no place on earth where you will not find a Peruvian band." David Sedaris

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CatGirl says on May 30, 2008, 08:35:

Roci: I'm tired - go fix tht funhouse eye.

Thanks for trying to clarify, I can completely appreciate what it is like to explain something via typing that may be better explained in person when you are tired, jajaja
Story behind my "funhouse eye" joke...had something in my eye once (arrgh) that actually took out part of my visual field until the doc looked at it.

HG: Good advise ;))

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 03:53:

I believe in throwing in motricity in a language-learning situation, especially with younger children. It's like "hands-on" learning; we bake a cake together and We speak only English while doing it..."ok, how many eggs do you need?...4...ok, what do you do with them?...". Ir we play a simple game, like "Simon says" in English...

I tried this with a group of 6-year-olds and it works like a charm. We had about 10 or 12 English lessons, all with total immersion-hands-on technique; we sang songs, played games they already basically knew, painted with water-colors...a variety of activities...and now four years later and receiving classroom instruction with customary methodolgy (books, workbooks etc) these kids still remember what we learned in my pre-school class and love it.

I have a litle grandson, 20 months now who is going to day-care and learning his first language, Swedish, which is dominant even at home, even if my daughter and my son who visits often, speak mostly (my son exclusively) English to the baby. I have spoken only English to the baby from the birth. I'm afraid, however, that he will NOT become fully bilingual if his mum does not make the effort to speak only English to him.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Portena says on May 31, 2008, 08:12:

The motricity strategy certainly seems to be a good option, particularly at that developmental level. The kids are paying attention and clearly having lots of fun!

How many languages do you speak, Desi? And, what were the learning strategies that worked best for you?

I suppose I could apply the motricity strategy for myself by signing up for riding classes with a Spanish riding instructor. So, on my travel wish list, I'll add a trip to Spain to work with a famous jumper rider!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 09:38:

I speak four, including my native Finnish. I have learned all of them in "total immersion" type of situation and my best teacher has been Ms. Necessity. I spoke some English and Swedish when I graduated from high school in Finland, forgot all my Swedish, learned English in USA, Spanish in Colombia and Swedish in Sweden.

My best learning strategy has always been the need to learn the language of the country as a powerful motivation combined with college-level studies on the target language. It's very challenging but rewarding at the same time. I studied at a college in US, just the first two years, but learned a lot of English by studying political science and socoiology, Communications and speech. I can recommend Speech, especially. It's a thrill to speak in front of a group of native speakers when you are still learning yourself:) I studied Pre-school education in Colombia, in Spanish (that's when I became truly fluent) and got my teaching degree in Sweden, in Swedish. (When I started the school here in Sweden I could not even ontroduce myself in Swedish but had to do it English; when I finished my specially designed teaching credits course a year later I was fluent in Swedish.

The great advantage of learning a new language as you live in the country and study at the same time is that you get all the different language skills at the same time.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Portena says on May 31, 2008, 09:59:

Four languages! Wow!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 31, 2008, 11:57:

It's no big deal, portena. Basically, I should be able to handle a couple more, I had both German and French in high school, but I'ne never spoken either one of them.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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christobeldawg says on May 31, 2008, 18:59:

I am thinking, from what I am reading here, that maybe the Pimsleur course I have been listening to is not all that effective, because it is based on the idea of learning as a child learns, and while I may be childish, I am not a child.
I will be in Bogota this summer, for a few weeks. Anybody have any suggestions on how I could best do some type of deep immersion[in language, that is] without breaking the bank? I would appreciate any leads.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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CatGirl says on May 31, 2008, 19:06:

Dawg - how do you best learn? auditory, visual, hands on?

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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christobeldawg says on May 31, 2008, 19:14:

Well, I am not naturally very outgoing, until I get to know people, so speaking is not my strong learning method. I tend to learn more easily how to read and write, but what I really need is how to understand and speak the spoken word.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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CatGirl says on May 31, 2008, 19:27:

I understand you want to learn "speaking" just wanted to know how you learned best, I can already tell you are not direct - jajajaja...yet you like to get to the point! ja!

- it is just that Pimsl. is sooo - I dont know, ...Booooring!

http://www.visuallinklanguages.com/

Affordable, focuses on visual and auditory interactive learning. It is like playing a game when you use it. They are full of supplemental resources and if I recall you can also do a free trial run and see of you like it.

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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CatGirl says on May 31, 2008, 19:30:

www.visuallinkspanish.com - this might bring you right to it too (it covers French now too)

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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christobeldawg says on May 31, 2008, 19:40:

thanks I'll check it out, would love to do some total immersion course in Bogota this summer, as my wife works during the week, so that would be a great time to study Spanish.
I think I am more visual in learning, as I am a photographer, and tend to be an imaginative visualizer in things.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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christobeldawg says on May 31, 2008, 19:42:

Check out Spanish 5000. It is free.

admittedly, arriving can feel great too

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Portena says on May 31, 2008, 20:44:

Thanks for the link CG.

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Monita Linda says on Jul 30, 2008, 16:34:

They work like that in the institute where I worked. But let's face it, learning a new language is and remains learning a new language.... Whatever "perfect" method you use.

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