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Panama and Colombia Comparisons

Panama V’s Colombia

After another recent trip to Panama, I have compiled below some comparisons between Panama and Colombia, including some negative and positive aspects. The main comparison concentrates on the cities; Panama City and Bogota / Medellin. I’m interested in others opinions / points / thoughts. I have referred to Panama City more extensively in the below, not as a bias, but rather due to the fact I am assuming that maybe many PBHiers have not been to Panama.

Both places are great and have their distinct advantages / disadvantages.

Foreigners: Panama seemed to have far more foreigners, both of the business / professional and backpacker species. They were all over the place, however one is still able to find places devoid of them all, if that is a main criteria. I see far less foreigners in Medellin, even in Parque Lleras, which most people on PBH seem to think is swarming with them.

General Business: my impression of Panama City is that it is a much more international city, with a far greater presence of international companies. This also encompasses Panamanian companies who are conversant with, or used to working in, the international arena (or with foreigners). There appear to be many developments and businesses coming to operate in Panama; especially with the canal expansion.

Opportunities to Set up a Foreign Business: Not really my specialty, but from dabbling in property in Panama, and perusing the plethora of information available to obtain investment visas etc, it appears much easier in Panama. Interested on thoughts and comments on this.

Buying Property: IMO much easier in Panama than Colombia. Well established regulations, promulgated in English make it very easy for a foreigner to source information and make informed decisions. A multitude of English speaking lawyers, who are used to operating with non-spanish speaking foreigners, also exist. The government has made it a priority to attract overseas investors, and to streamline the process. Property ranges from outrageous to cheap. A foreigners tax status is very attractive in Panama.

Dealing with Lawyers / Property Agents: A dream in PC compared to Colombia. They actually know (generally) what they are talking about and are well versed in dealing with foreigners requirements.

Banks: Easy to set up a bank account, and decent service relatively speaking in PC. Easy to transfer money in and out of that account. Have not done this in Colombia, but from what I understand it is not a 'happy' process!!

Traffic: PC traffic sucks. Bogota traffic sucks. Medellin is much better, although I may revise that if Ave Poblado doesn’t improve!!!! If PC had not expanded the boardwalk on Ave Balboa (the main road on the bay) – traffic would be a nightmare.

Infrastructure: Pretty good in the nice areas IMO in all three.

Weather. Depends what your preference is, however Bogota is always rainy and cool. Medellin much better but also rains a hell of a lot. Panama is much hotter and very humid; and being the wet season was out of control. Not pleasant!!!

Attractiveness of the ‘’Zona Rosa’’ Type Areas: For Panama City I am taking this to include ie Marbella (near the Casinos) and Ave Paraguay type areas (where all the bars etc are). Medellin wins, closely followed by Bogota, and PC trailing far behind. PC appears much ‘grubbier’, and seedy in some respects. Medellin and Bogota have centered their areas around well maintained parks, with lots of trees and security making for a nicer environment.

Shopping: Panama beats the ass of Colombia in this respect. Far cheaper (especially international brands and electronics etc), and far greater range of goods. My girlfriend went ballistic in Panama. All three cities have very nice, air-conditioned malls however the ones in Panama were really good (Allbrook; Multi Plaza and Multicentro). Interestingly, I was told they are all Colombian owned ?

Supermarkets: Good in all three cities. Panama had a better range of international type foods, if that is what your after. The fruits and vegetables variety was much, much better in Bogota / Medellin though. Cheaper in Panama especially things like cereals.

Furniture and goods shopping was much easier (and cheaper) in Panama, with a great range from very high end to cheap and nasty. Service was excellent, with sales people following up, bargaining, organizing transport and deliveries pretty much happening on time. I was impressed. Can’t say I have physically done a lot of furniture shopping in Colombia, but the times I have looked, I did not get anywhere near the service.

Milk: Panamanian supermarkets have learned that plastic bags are a really stupid idea for storing milk in.

Restaurants: Bogota is great for restaurants, and Panama also has a very good range. Medellin lags behind here. With the current exchange rate; I think I found Panama to be cheaper for middle to high end type. The causeway is a great area to have a meal and beer; but I like Bogota in this respect. Sometimes in panama restaurant service was not the best, however same same for Medellin. Bogota is much better generally for bar / restaurant service IMO.

Taxis: Panama is cheaper (1.25 usd for a 5 to 10 minute ride; 2.25 USD from Ave Balboa to Allbrook which is a fair hike – 15/20 mins) however the taxis in Panama take it up the #$$%.

Rude drivers, ‘shite’ cars, often no A/C and no posted prices. One always therefore has to commence bargaining before entering, and the drivers are always trying to rip off the tourists. Also distinct lack of them compared to both Bogota and Medellin. They additionally charge a higher fee based on the amount of personnel and shopping bags.

Often they pick you up with other passengers, or try to stop and take additional passengers, which can be disconcerting for foreigners.

Friendliness: I find people in Bogota very friendly and people in Medellin a lot more standoffish (unless you are ‘introduced’ – especially in the up-market areas) – I seem to be alone in this perception though!!!.

I find Panamanians quite friendly, although some certainly appear to have more of a gripe against Gringos than in Colombia. I found the men to be much ruder / aggressive in Panama with respect to their ‘’harassment’’ of women; especially uncalled for comments etc. My girlfriend did not want to arrive in Customs alone after her last experience.

English: More English spoken in Panama.

Spanish: Much better in Bogota and Medellin. Panamanian Spanish was similar to the coast in Colombia.

Spanish Courses. Lots of schools around; higher prices though I think 8 to 10 to 12 usd an hr.

Police / Customs etc: I get the impression they are more corrupt in Panama than Colombia. They are certainly easier to deal with in Colombia although a bad experience may contribute to my bias. I did have a good experience in the old city during the day where a police car pulled over and told us to get in – drove us three blocks and dropped us off and said not to go back to the other area as it was quite dodgy.

General Petty Crime Against Foreigners: More chance of getting sifted, I would say, in PC than Bogota or Medellin (talking about the Zona Rosa type areas only). The old City can be dodgy as hell during the day, maybe worse than Candalaria.

Things to do. As far as around the city, all three places have plenty to do, with Bogota and PC edging out Medellin. In Panama there is the old city and then the Morgan ruins, the Canal (which is awesome to visit), OK beaches nearby, the Causeway (great on a Sunday night). The new and improved esplanade in PC is a big bonus for running, blading etc.

Movie Theatres: Good in all places however awsome in PC with VIP service if you want to pay a bit extra (8 USD) – huge leather reclining chairs and waiter service.

24/7 nes!!: PC wins hands down; you can find a party any night of the week until very late with better variety. All three have 24/7 supermarkets etc and if all else fails Casinos.

Casinos. PC is by far the best, followed by Bogota and then Medellin. Some of the PC ones seem to be infested with Colombian night-prowlers, but some also have live bans, salsa and disco type entertainment. Quite good.

Nightlife: Bogota has the best IMO and is more friendly than PC and Medellin. PC also has some great nightlife and is more 24/7. Mixture of rock / electronic / latin. If you are after ‘international’ type nightlife then Medellin comes in last. If you are not interested in that then Medellin is awesome for a party, however is the least 24/7 out of the 3.

There are some new bars in PC, including the Londoner, which has live bands etc. Very good and lively atmosphere (sort of Like Sahara if you know PC).

Beers: Beers in PC were 3 usd a bottle in expensive places. 1.25 in places like Casinos etc. Many places have promotions where you receive 6 beers in an ice bucket and ladies drink free (ie Bennigans on a Thursday night).

Women: All three places have amazing women; Panamanian women are also very, very attractive. Friendliest / easiest to meet for solo males (talking normal women here): in PC, followed by Bogota, followed by Medellin. If you know locals, then Medellin moves up the ranks.

Anyway – in the absence of a Panama forum, I hope to hear some opinions based on the above.

By bickerss on Aug 30, 2009, 04:15 in Friendly Talkzone.

bickerss says on Aug 30, 2009, 04:28:

oh and mods / Peter: Panama forum pls.

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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aztec says on Aug 30, 2009, 05:10:

Thanks bickerss. As you may know, I have a friend (foreigner) who actually moved from Medellin to Panama because of the difficulty operating a business in Colombia. Also the taxes and red type made it impossible for him to effectively move funds back and forth. While he still owns apartments in Medellin he has since purchased much more property in Panama. I know for a fact if the Colombian government requirements and regulations were not so onerous all of these purchases would have been made in Colombia.

Another Colombian family friend(wife's) for many years have owned a pharmaceutical company in Bogota. A number of years ago they found it necessary to reincorporate in Panama. Their reasons were both personal and financial. Both better managed in Panama than Colombia.

We have since learned there is something like a symbiotic relationship between the two Countries. Many of the small, medium and family owned businesses while operating in Colombia are in fact incorporated in Panama. The airplanes to and from Panama and Bogota are usually filled with people who shop in Panama.

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bickerss says on Aug 30, 2009, 05:18:

no problems; from what I have seen of Colombia, it's 'systems' are specially designed to 'test' any foreigners patience!!

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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mikeinpuerto says on Aug 30, 2009, 05:19:

I have to agree with you Steve on the Banking here ..The banks suck ..The service is dreadfull ...and the charges are outrageous ...Buy Colombian bank shares ..no service and sky high charges they must be making a fortune...I hope the government deregulates the financial markets totally ..

Smile and everyone will wonder what they are missing.

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mikeinpuerto says on Aug 30, 2009, 05:23:

Tryinng to get an accurate price of property prices from a real estate agent is a nightmare here ..I have tried ......I have been sitting in the office when the agent has been talking to the seller and they have said that I am an extranjero .That is when the price changes and the quality changes . In the case of a finca the price went up and the number of hectares went down ...

Smile and everyone will wonder what they are missing.

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whitewidow says on Aug 30, 2009, 05:42:

Panama is a terrible place to live. Try it for a few months and you will see what I mean. This is the place that customer service forgot and stupidity in ingrained deeply from within the culture.

- fun place to party for a few days is about it.

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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bickerss says on Aug 30, 2009, 05:53:

I was there for a few months previously and liked it, although my preference for living long term is Colombia.

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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whitewidow says on Aug 30, 2009, 06:03:

So, didn't the "dumbass" factor get to you? You have to admit, Panamanians are dumb by design........... even the smart ones.

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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bickerss says on Aug 30, 2009, 06:06:

Not really more than in Colombia. As stated in my post above; some of the service I got was pretty good. On the lawyer / buying goods / real estate agents the service is much better than in Colombia and easy to facilitate. Restaurant service could be shabby.

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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bickerss says on Aug 30, 2009, 06:10:

Thanks Sapo.

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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luck4unme says on Aug 30, 2009, 06:55:

Bickerss wrote:

"Women: All three places have amazing women; Panamanian women are also very, very attractive"

Are you sure the "lookers" in Panama were not actually Colombianas on "sabbatical?" The real beauties could even have been Paisas on their way to "work."

White Widow wrote:

"stupidity in ingrained deeply from within the culture."

The really, really stupid ones were probably Ticos and Ticas.

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bickerss says on Aug 30, 2009, 06:59:

umm yes - I can tell the difference between a colombian hooker and a 'normal' Panamanian female, working in offices and at normal places.

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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whitewidow says on Aug 30, 2009, 07:00:

I know a few hottie colombians that are working in offices on a work visa as well. they are not all putas.

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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quantum says on Aug 30, 2009, 08:58:

Good and useful point by point comparison bickers. Thnx for that bit of reporting. Remember though, once u leave Panama City, the cost factor goes way down. Unless its shopping centers yur talking about anyway. Chiriqui is probably the most cost effective, safe and desirable all around place to live, although yes WW, the dumb/stupid ingrained factor is ever present.(especially on the hywys) You dont notice that in Colombia so much, do u, except on the govt. and banking level that is?

quantum

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theflatline says on Aug 30, 2009, 09:07:

Colombian is jillions of times harder to do business and retired in for da gringos.

Panama was friendly to the money laundering crew and the base there, so they learned how to treat people and industry properly to make them stay.

I just prefer Colombia so I can deal with the hassles. But I have Panamanian citizenship as well.

Legaleez for Complete Morons - A book for gringos in Colombia for who think they understand the nature of the law in a country where they cannot speak the language.

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Sam Salmon says on Aug 30, 2009, 09:08:

Most Panamanian women look like Indians, short/no waist

' a la orden!'

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charlysito71 says on Aug 30, 2009, 09:14:

Beware,if buying property in Panama especially along the beaches. Many so called "Realitors" are not licenced and will try to get a down payment,but the property is government owned and not for sale.Best thing to do,is contact a lawyer in the city to handle all transactions legal for you.My advice only as I have "been there done that"

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whitewidow says on Aug 30, 2009, 09:40:

that is about right, quantum.

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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sanandressi says on Aug 30, 2009, 10:31:

Panama was a part of Colombia at one time remember....

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 30, 2009, 10:48:

Isn`t PC much dirtier than Medellinh or Bogota? Can you drink tapwater in PC like in Cali, Medellin or Bogota?

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quantum says on Aug 30, 2009, 10:59:

Yep, Panama's got a lotta dumbness ingrained, but its inherently kind and good natured. Theyre happy children, and some of em actually know how to do technical things. For a small country, its a big mix. Collectively its adolescent, but getting better all the time, which is more than I can say for most places. And we have a new President who's on fire. He came in with a long list of things to accomplish, and hes slicing thru them with record speed. Never seen anything like it. And hes going after every thug, big or small, (the bigger the better) political or commercial. His popularity rating is up there in the stratosphere, like Uribes was for a time......

quantum

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whitewidow says on Aug 30, 2009, 11:23:

The Panamanians I spoke to seemed to think Martinelli was helping the rich, but had forgot all his promises he made to the poor.

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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bickerss says on Aug 30, 2009, 13:55:

PC is dirtier, as illustrated in the post, but at the same time much more international. Colombia is light years away and in many ways, that is a plus / bonus!!. You can drink the tap water (or thats what I was told and did - no side effects yet!!!)

Investment Strategy - buying when others are crying!! Offloading when others are gloating!!!

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quantum says on Aug 30, 2009, 16:25:

Look! The very first thing Martinelli did was to raise Police salaries by a minimum of $100 depending on level. Then he started payingout $100 a month to every retired person over a certain age, (I think 70). Not bad for starters, all in the first week. Plus announcing the construction of a new metro (very much needed) and talked about for a long long time. Then, installing a curfew on minors at 9pm. The ganstas were using the "menor de edad" for all their dirty work because they were immune from prosecution. No longer, gracias a Martinelli. And they know it now. Crime has gone done considerably, just as it has in Colombia where they have implemented the same curfew laws. Up to now,nobody, neither poor nor rich can legitimately find fault with Martinelli. Hes takin care of bizniss. The only ones worried are the bad guys and the PRD thugs..........go Martinelli!!!

quantum

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whitewidow says on Aug 30, 2009, 17:09:

hmmmm, well, there ya go. panama has needed a proactive president for a long time. hopefully he is the real deal now and in the future.

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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pedro (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 30, 2009, 18:56:

Another criteria:

80's rock anthems. I prefer countries with an 80's rock anthem named after them. On this count, Panama has the clear advantage over Colombia.

"this may seem a strange post but it is not...when in colombia men need to be aware that colombia women may try to be seductive and entice a travelling gringo to have sex with them..to be forewarned is to be forearmed..." -- pow wow

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muffiemae says on Sep 1, 2009, 14:38:

Living in any "foreign country" (foreign to where we grew up) will have its challenges. I moved to the highlands of Panama in my early 60s from the US and have never regretted it. Sure, there are differences, but in my opinion the positives far outweigh the negatives of living in the US.

My property taxes are $100 per year for a very nice house. Yes, once you have your pensionado visa you can move your household goods here duty free. Cars and gasoline are much less expensive in Panama than in Colombia. My license plates are about $30 per year versus (I'm told) are a LOT higher in Colombia. I've also read about the stupid law in Colombia forbidding automobile windows being tinted beyond a certain darkness without a "good reason" - and just because the sun bothers your eyes is not a "good reason."

I can comment very little about Panama City, except to say that it's at least six hours from where I live and I go there as seldom as possible. It's hot, crowded, the traffic is a nightmare...and the city life is generally not for me. Where I live, I have 1100 meters with a block wall all around my property, a nice house, my family of 12 dogs (all rescued and adopted from the street) and a wonderful employee for five days a week who helps me take care of the house and dogs. Even so, he often doesn't have enough to do, so he cleans my house every week as well.

Here in the highlands I consider the temperature ideal. It's pretty similar to Medellin, including the rain. Never too hot, never too cold. We do have some high winds during the dry season.

Getting the pensionado visa in Panama is relatively easy. $1,000 per month SS to qualify plus $250 for spouse. (This was recently raised from $500 plus $250.) With the pensionado visa, we get many discounts, from restaurants to transportation to 25% discount on air travel. In many stores where I buy things, even if I'm not entitled by law to a discount, the merchants at least do not charge me the 5% sales tax.

I am very favorably pleased with Panama's new president. While the US is raising all sorts of hell trying to get Panama to essentially open their records so they can grab "tax cheats" (or whomever they might call "tax cheats"), Panama is politely telling the US to shove it. Our new president is attacking corruption right and left also. Good for him!

The banking system in Panama leaves a lot to be desired. However, I prefer it any day over that in the US where everyone is privy to every move you make. I have not had experience with the banking system in Colombia, but I hear that it may be even worse than in Panama. Now that Colombia is welcoming more US troops, I have more concern about where Colombia is headed.

So far I've made two trips to Medellin. While it's part of the Panamanian culture for them to throw trash wherever they are finished with it - including throwing bags of trash all along the roads - I was very impressed with the cleanliness in Medellin. I was also impressed with the big stores like Exito. Unlike another poster on this forum, I found the prices of electronics and big items like stoves and refrigerators to be comparable to the US, with a much bigger selection than I've found in Panama. And in the stores in Medellin, I was pleased to find employees who are readily available and willing to help. In restaurants, the service was prompt and the wait staff was professional. Here in Panama the term "customer service" is an oxymoron.

Contrary to what another poster said on this forum, the lawyers in Panama are generally a nightmare. Most of them don't know what they're doing and don't care as long as they get your money; and after they do you really have no recourse. On the other hand, I'm using a lawyer in Medellin who (so far) has given me excellent service and speaks excellent English.

The point is there are positives and negatives about each country - and ones impression depends upon what part of the country he/she visits or lives in. I do think Colombia is beautiful and if I had come there before choosing Panama, I might have chosen Colombia instead. And who knows where I will end up in the future?

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quantum says on Sep 3, 2009, 15:06:

Azu, theres more people in Medellin than the entire country of Panama. Masses make messes......Were not laying claim to high culture here in Panama. Just bueno, bonito y barato and amigable y tranquilo.........culture is limited to Panama City for the most part.........and what we can generate with private parties,haha.............

quantum

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whitewidow says on Sep 3, 2009, 16:19:

if anything, panamanians are very proud of their country. viva panama! but, live in colombia!

I'm no doper! I just play one on TV.

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tasco66 says on Sep 4, 2009, 11:07:

Mods, can we please get a Panama forum?

The trouble with free elections is, you never know who is going to win (Leonid Brezhnev)

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