Are Colombians Racist?

Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 20:21:

Zumi..... Are you just looking for a reason to ruin my weekend?

The only person that appears to be racist is you!!You are not going to make any Colombian person, or anyone who is honestly familiar with Medellin believe that you heard this language. I don't even know why I waisted my time on this thread....Go get a life

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juancegomez says on May 7, 2005, 20:23:

In the Spanish language, nobody uses the word "niggers", it doesn't exist, but rather the word is "negro", which means "black" in Spanish. You will hear it in almost all the Spanish speaking world (I've certainly heard it when I've travelled in the region and I've read it in foreign books as well).

In any case, it has a different sense than it does in English and in the United States. It does not automatically equate to racism or discrimination, not at all, trying to make such a parallel would be wrong and a little bit presumptious too.

It all depends on the context. "Qiubo, negro" as a salute is even used by people that are not of African descent and nothing happens.

Saying "negro de mierda" would definitely be an insult, not directly because of the word "negro" but because of the other word.

On the other hand, real racism does exist here, and so do really racist terms, as they do in many other countries in the world. Mostly of a passive rather than active nature, however, which doesn't excuse it either.

On one level, there is the cultural inheritance from Spain and the times of African slavery, which in turn makes some people develop prejudices towards African-descendants because they have the mistaken belief that they are more likely to be criminals, because people believe that black is an ugly color, because they would supposedly live in poverty, and stuff like that with no consistent factual basis (except maybe for the last statement, because many Black Colombians do live in bad socioeconomic conditions, as most Colombians do as well).

It should also be noted that African Colombians have contributed to Colombian society in spite of all this, both positively and negatively, like everyone else has. In particular, they have been influential in the northern and northeastern coasts, for example.

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poco says on May 7, 2005, 20:33:

Colombia is famous For its drivers
Not many can race as fast as Montoya

http://www.sportinglife.com/clients/planetf1/formula1/drivers/montoya.insdat

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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CasaSol says on May 7, 2005, 20:37:

The ugly truth of racism in Colombia Ok, they don't say "nigger", they say "neeegeeer". I've lived in the city for over a year and heard this reference at least a dozen times. Plus, The only Afro-Colombianos I ever have seen in Medellin are either on the streets begging for money in shanty towns far above the city. From my observations "paisas" are very racist and judge everything based on skin-tone and shade of color. Go to areas of Medellin like Poblado and everyone is proud of their whiteness.Maybe it's different elsewhere but I have observed blatant racism in Medellin.

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Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 20:38:

Juance I am glad you are going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt in that you belive that he is simply misinterpreting what is being saic. I don't feel so inclined to do so. When a person says to a woman "Negra", Negra does not sound like "nigger". Also, since you and I know it is meant said in a famiiar or even endeering way, if he really hears someone being reffered to as negra or negro, he will readily notice that the other party is often more complemented than insulted. In fact, we ussually only call someone negra or negro when we know the person well.

I think this guy is just acting like a TROLL, if you ask me.

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kernow62 says on May 7, 2005, 20:41:

We will see tommorow.

Now if only he could play tennis better, perhaps without a motorcycle. ;-)

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Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 20:41:

One more thing Black Colombians don't refer to themselves as Afro-Colombians...Because black and white is so mixed in Colombia, we really don't have a race problem like there is here in the states. Here in the states, there are two distinct cultures. In Colombia a black paisa speaks like a paisa. A black caleno speaks like a caleno.

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Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 20:43:

Kenow You lost me on that one. What are you smoking this evening?

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CasaSol says on May 7, 2005, 20:45:

Go Ahead Privilege yourself. They used to do the same thing in the South. You think it's cute to call someone a negro or whatever while you live your white privileged lifestyle. Yes, the "negro" is the woman who waits on your ass all day making nothing and returning to her shack in the hills. You think that's sweet right? Call it whatever you want but in the end it is racist. Why? Well, you are the one calling the shots and you are the one living a privileged lifestyle soley based on your skin color.

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CasaSol says on May 7, 2005, 20:48:

How Funny All the Colombians I know in the States are very clear on the difference in BLACK and WHITE.

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Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 20:52:

here we go... Another gringo idiot trying to superimpose his culture on us Latinos. Listen Mr. Know It All, you might want to listen to all the salsa where they sing about "La Negra", it is never in a derogatory way. Never. In fact Zumi man, one of the greatest salsa singers in the history of salsa, Celia Cruz, had a nickname......if you don't know what it is, I will just wait for someone else to post it here because if I post it, you will call me a racist. She even referred to herself by that name. I will let someone else do the honor of posting it while you run aroung calling people racist. I just knew this was going to happen.

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kernow62 says on May 7, 2005, 20:52:

G5 I was responding to Poco who made the most sense in the thread so far.

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Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 20:55:

Kenow...... You are drinking or smoking something....I know you are. I hear it in your voice

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Amilcar says on May 7, 2005, 21:02:

Dont worry "Another gringo idiot trying to superimpose his culture on us"

In 20 years demographers say latinos will own the United states, so we are actually superimposing our culture there, soon to be latino for sure. Just look at the country now, and what it was 20 years ago. It will soon be ours. They are now bowing to spanish being spoken in professional environments, government, road signs, and television, and they don't even control their borders. It will not be much longer:)

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poco says on May 7, 2005, 21:02:

OH,,, here too I kind of like this thing



Not enough to move there though,,, tooooooooooo cold.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kernow62 says on May 7, 2005, 21:05:

No drinking or smoking G5 it must be this damn Gamelan Semar Pegulingan Saih Pitu CD I am listening to. Unless the Indian store slipped something into my Geet Gopal incense.

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Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 21:05:

Yes Amilcar............I Love it !!!!! Great point!!!!

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kernow62 says on May 7, 2005, 21:06:

Poco can you do one of Florida and make it look like a German Luger?

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Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 21:07:

POCO THAT IS SO COOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love it!!!!!

Now if I can only figure out how to move it to a file.......for future use

Thanks so much

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Gomezman5 says on May 7, 2005, 21:12:

Mission accomplished It is now on my desk top!!!I love it......

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poco says on May 7, 2005, 21:19:

florida like a GM5 right click and save as a file on your computer. GIF image has a transparent background,, looks the same on any color background.

Hummm,, I can make one of Florida, and idea just occurred. Where is that picture of JEB.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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platano says on May 7, 2005, 22:13:

Sometimes "niche" is used in Colombia to mean "nigger".... And sometimes it's used as a term of endearment. Context and tone decides.

Here's the dictionary definition of "Niche"

Niche--Persona de color o que vive en un lugar marginal, por lo general de bajo nivel cultural y económico

(a "colored person" or a person of "low cultural and economic level who lives in a marginal place")

In the USA a marginal place might be thought by some to be a mobile home, a house trailer. Just as the term "trailer trash" developed in the USA to insult people of "low cultural and economic level", the same happens in Colombia with the word "niche".

But now country singers have subverted the term and sing songs expressing pride in being trailer trash. People buy and give trailer trash dolls. A successful subversion of an insult.

The word has also been appropriated and subverted in Colombia, as in "Grupo Niche," kind of like USA blacks adopting as a group name NWA ("Niggers with Attitude") or gays adopted the word "queer" and then call themselves queers, successfully subverting the negative aspect.

However, at times the word "niche" is used as a term of endearment and I have heard it used that way, too. But from context and tone of voice you can certainly tell when it is being used as an insult. If someone is saying "ese niche creido" or "ese maldito niche" then the word is being used as an insult.

Plátano, el banano verde
Estudiante del Manual de Urbanidad y Buenas Maneras por Manuel Antonio Carreño
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 7, 2005, 22:37:

Which demographers? That sounds way too soon. According to the Census Bureau, Hispanics (of all races) will be about 25% of the U.S. population in 45 years. Someday they will probably be the majority but the last time I saw an estimate for that milestone, it was 80 or 100 years out.



www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/population/001720.h...

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Miguel says on May 7, 2005, 22:56:

Couple of Things Ok Poco, how about la bandera de colombia ontop the state of Missouri, so I can send it to out least favorite son John Ashcroft? As far as the "N" word goes, in the Barranquilla phone book there is an informative and rather lengthy written history about the north coast of colombia, which refers to "the niggers" that settled there, in both the Spanish and English texts.

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ColombianoX says on May 7, 2005, 23:03:

"Because black and white is so mixed in Colombia, we really don't have a race problem like there is here in the states. Here in the states, there are two distinct cultures. In Colombia a black paisa speaks like a paisa. A black caleno speaks like a caleno."


"Another gringo idiot trying to superimpose his culture on us Latinos."
------------------------------------------------------------------

Way to go Gomezman!! Así se habla!! Why is it some gringos have trouble accepting that despite all her problems, in Colombia race is not the salient issue that it is in the USA and other countries? Of all the reasons for our wars and conflicts, race, thankfully is not one of them! I agree with you Gomez, to me this Zumi seems to be the real racist here.

In Colombia, a black compatriot is a COLOMBIAN FIRST !!!


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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ColombianoX says on May 7, 2005, 23:04:

"Someday they will probably be the majority but the last time I saw an estimate for that milestone, it was 80 or 100 years out."


I sure hope I live to see that day!!!



ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Hispanidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Lionheart says on May 7, 2005, 23:18:

I need to side with Zumi I have heard a few Colombians refer to Black Colombians as neeeggeeers ... and what they had to say about them wasn't nice. I recall this fact was confirmed in former threads, so no need to pump up your nationalism here and say racism doesn't exist in Colombia. I have also heard very bad things considering the indigenious people of Colombia, making me cut a few converstations short as I detest racism in any shape or form. Saying serious racism doesn't exist in Colombia is false, just as if it were said for the USA or other Latin countries (and probably most of the rest of the world.)

P.S.: Who mentioned a few days ago that only two banks in a city hired black employees?

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Sylvie says on May 7, 2005, 23:35:

hmm What I find odd is that this post is specific to the people of Medellin while the entire world has people who suffer (yes, suffer) from racism. There are racist in Canada, Africa, Greece, Italy, and even in the good old United States. Someone mentioned "the "negro" is the woman who waits on your ass all day making nothing and returning to her shack in the hills."

ALl I can suggest to you is to take a long look in the mirror. Go visit Texas, Georgia, Florida and Southern California. The maids, gardeners and farm workers who work for less than minimum wage dont have the same skin color and hair color than their employees. I suppose they're all racist too? It is the same in many other countries. Go observe how visiting Asians get treated when they go to Eastern Europe.

You'd have to be mighty iggnorant to think that only people who use the word nigger are racists.

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Elbigie says on May 8, 2005, 01:34:

Are Colombians Racist?. I reckon you can call someone in Colombia "negro" or even "negrito"in an affectioned way, without meaning to insult or discriminate. I guess the problem is not so much this term and how it's used, but the way black people are treated. Is it coincidence that the Choco province -the largest black population area in Colombia- is also the poorest and most forgotten and neglected region by the government in Colombia?. How many black officers are members of the Colombian navy?.

You can also vilify someone by calling him/her indio (a)." Ud. si es muy Indio!!!". Yes, I think we are fairly racist, in fact so much so we aren't aware of it.

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Lionheart says on May 8, 2005, 01:52:

two other instances I remember I recall being called "mi negrito" myself ... I was honestly shocked at first, but I was told repeatedly by several that it is common word of affection ... I can't help it, it leaves a bitter taste for me.

A light-skinned Bogotana with long beautiful natural mahagony hair told me she needs to get her hair cut. I was amazed, I asked her how she could do that to her hair. She said "Of course I need to do that, my friends would call me india if I didn't". End of friendship.

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VanMan says on May 8, 2005, 02:41:

racism, not so much. Classism, oh yes. During my trip there, I did get a feeling that black people in general are more poorer. Which, of course doesn't correlate black = poor, or all poor people are black. Something I noticed and I asked several colombians from different cities about. What is more relevant is classism. How much money and stature one has, either through power, but mostly through money. I find Colombians look down on people being poor rather than being black.

My friend calls his girlfriend 'negra' when they are doing their cute-love-vomit gagging-sweet-talk. So, yes it is used in an endearing way. The history of why they do - i don't know.

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Caballista says on May 8, 2005, 02:59:

discrimination and color I don't know why, some people don't stop thinking about these 2 words. Since I moved to United States, I can see the difference between USA Negros and Colombian Negros. In Colombia the Negros feel and act like Colombianos. We are blancos y negros and we do not feel any difference. We are Humans and that is all. There is black and white people working and living in the same condition. And the Indians are respected in the way they now call for respect. not like before. I love my Colombian People and I respect the way they are. Let them be happy in the way everybody wants to be. Let them dance and loved each other without malice. If somebody with any skin color is looking for the difference, is his or her problem. And here in USA, I've love to stop listening to some people trying to have problems or making problems because some Other colored people look at them in a different way (we are not gold); everything it's in your own actitud. Act like a gentleman or like a lady or like a man or like a woman, and nobody will see you skin color.
That is the difference with the black people here, they discriminate themselves with their attitude. Same thing with white people.
Invest your time don't waste your time and think positive.........
have a great and healthy morning. Coman mas arepas con chocolate y mas cocadas con leche!!!!!!!!! son combinaciones perfectas y son blancas y negras y no pelean jajajajaja.
Feliz Dia de las Madres a todas!!!!!

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 8, 2005, 03:13:

I agree with Lionheart, Racism exist in Colombia specially in Cartagena, I remembered in one of the Colombia beauty contest they would not let a girl to represent the department just because she was black, and I remember when I used to live there my neighbours used to say that they wouldn't go to the beaches of Bocagrande on the 1 of January because was full of blacks. and to avoid the marbella beaches too. and how many rich families in Cartagena don't allowed the daughters to go out with a Black person.
The word negro is used in a friendly way too sometimes they called me negrita even though I have a very light skin.
I remembered reading the article a long time ago of this Black american girl that when to San Andres I was refused entry to a club for being black.

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viewpoint says on May 8, 2005, 05:16:

ZUMI I have never ever heard the term "niggers" used in Medellin and I hope I never hear it again but having said that the majority of your other observations are correct. I try to stay out of these kind of treads because of my strong feelings towards the mistreatment of blacks in Colombia. It is my feeling that the racial mistreatment of blacks comes from the highest levels of government (central, municipal and cities) then filters its way through upper management of many companies in Medellin (and elsewhere). In Medellin go to Conavi, BanColombia and the Metro system and look for a black face.

Colombia has laws the prohibit discrimination but it is rampant throughtout Medellin (as an example) where blacks are not allowed in certain clubs or resturants. This discrimination doesn't seem to exist to any great degree in the lower strata levels of the economic scale as the peoples seem more accepting of each other (sharing an ecomonic commonality) regardless of color but as you climb up the economic ladder to the higher strata levels the true racist attitudes seem to come out of some (not all) "white skinned" peoples.

About 2% of blacks in Colombia are financially able to obtain a college education and even when they succeed in obtaining that education and have good skills they are turned down soley because of the color of their skin. Conavi as an example will not hire a black skinned person to work in their banks in Medellin. The Metro system in Medellin has the same policies. There are only two banks in Medellin that employ blacks in any capacity. When I see a black face I go out of my way to do my business with them and/or acknowledge their position.

Part of the time I live under the american flag, when I stopped at the grocery store this morning every customer and employee was black leaving me as the sole white face in the store. When I go to the movie or the resturant I am usually the sole white face in a sea of black. It's almost like I live in Quibdo part of the year. The majority of friends here are black as they comprise the majority of the population. The color of our skin is the least important factor among those things in life that tend to separate each of us.

Well I was born "color blind" so color has never been an issue in my life. My administrative assistant in Medellin is black and totally biligual and (now) well accepted (after more than two years) with my business friends. When we have lunch, dinner or a meeting at the country club it always takes the other members breath away to see a black Colombian woman spreaking english with a group of business people instead of waiting on them serving the meal (or washing the dishes) in their fancy club.

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kernow62 says on May 8, 2005, 05:27:

What about the FARC, are they an equal opportunity employer? Whenever I see photos most people are indios or mixed. Come to think of it so are the government soldiers I saw in my travels. Is it a race thing or a class thing?

What about Cali?

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dwmte says on May 8, 2005, 05:45:

one of my workers.... many years ago, was a black/negro/negrito/afro/fro/brother colombiano.

he was a truck driver for me...also pinch hit as a hak.

when his truck broke down, he borrowed $750,00 to fix it. i never saw a dime of that $750.00 again (u.s.$$).

i was really pissed....does that make me racist? i think i hoped he would fall and break his leg. i don't think i had those rude thoughts in 'nigger' terms.

and to add insult to injury, i had to go to the west side of medellin over around belen one time and my secretary and i grabbed a hak and it turned out to be him. after taking us to the west side, and me asking him to join us for lunch in some restaurant in laureles, he still wanted me to pay for the ride.....f*&^%^%%#g n(*&^^%$r.

dw.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 8, 2005, 06:18:

There are many families in Colombia although they don't treat a Black person badly, they can't hide the fact that they would be very dissapointed if one of his children married a Black person, many families will say "va a dañar la raza"

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viewpoint says on May 8, 2005, 06:27:

Well I might have felt that way at one point in my life but I have learned that there are worse things that can happen in life like your children marrying a really bad person from their same race.

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 07:45:

Platano, well put
"And sometimes it's used as a term of endearment. Context and tone decides."


Platano you are %100 correct, I could not of said it better myself!!

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itaguifun says on May 8, 2005, 07:51:

Mario are you sure a black compatriot is COLOMBIAN I thought you would have called him/her AMERICAN

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 07:51:

Thanks Cx I had hoped you would participate in this thread. This guy irritates me. The thing that bothers me is that early on in the thread, when I tried to explain things to him, he immediately attacked me to the point he almost called me a slave owner.

What a fool this guy is.

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 08:08:

Lionheart.... I think you are forgeting that this guy is Colombia and not here in the US. There may have been some Colombians that use the word here on line, but that is because they live here or they learned the word from associating with people on PBH. But I feel confident in saying that you never heard any Colombian use the N word in Colombia, not because there is not some racism, (although there is nothing like here) but because this word is not even in the Colombian Spanish language repertoire. Even in Mexico, which is directly next door to us, that word is never spoken.

So you say you have to "side with the guy." Would you be more clear about what you are siding with? Please be more specifi. Are you siding with his original assertion that Colombian people are racist? He certainly implies that in his opening thread. When I tried to explain how the word negra is used, he attacked me and accused me of being racist. May I suggest you read up and see how he attacked me.

This guy is a fool. Just because he misinterpeted the way a culture uses a word, and he decided to ALL COLOMBIANS as racist, I think you should jump on his bandwagon and defend the guy, by saying that you side with him. Colombian are NOT racist. In fact, we are less racist than Americans as a whole. You know that. If you thought that we were racists, you would not have a girlfriend in Colombia. Correct.

Just remember, he started the thread with the blanket question: "Are Colombian racists" That was wrong. That was an unfair generalization. And you damn well know it is!!!

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 08:15:

One more point Lionheart Regarding "me negrita" I don't know why you should have had to be reassured many times that this expression is not only NOT racist, but it is actually a compliment. Once should have been enough. I wish people that are not of our Latino culture, keep telling us how we need to act, and how we need to speak.

To proove my point....and this proves my point conclusively with no further need for debate....What was Celia Cruz's nick name????
Try this: Azucar Negra. She even acknowledged herself as "negrita" a few times. She sang several songs when she was young and singing with Sonora Mantacera, --again, about La negra.

Please be more open minded.

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poco says on May 8, 2005, 08:29:

There is none of this In the land of Bush

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 08:35:

Viewpoint...just hold on a minute. I agree with a lot of what you wrote....but you have kind of gone far a field here...very far. This guy mad the assertion in plain simple English, that all Colombians are racists. How else would you interpret the way he open this thread. Need I remind you, he asked "Are all Colombian Racist". He did not get into the inequalities in treatment. He did not discuss any of the items you talked about. Again, need I remind you that he made that conclusion based on one point and one point alone, and that point involved his misinterpretation of the use Negra, which he thought was nigger. I said it above, and I will say it again, and you said it yourself above, no Colombian person in Colombia even has a clue about what that word is. If the don't know the word, they can't say it. That is simple logic. The word is an American word, (although it may be used elsewhere) and NOT a Colombian word. You yourself admit you never heard it in Colombia.

As to your reference about the disparities, look, there are disparities all over Colombia. But those disparities are due to the differences between socioeconomic classes. It is not due to racism in and of itself. For example, the poor who live on the south side of Bogota get discriminated against. There are not a lot of blacks there but there are a lot of white poor people. Blacks do tend to be at a lesser socio economic advantage than many whites, but it is not because they are black..

And lastly....this discussion is so gringo orientated it is just not applicable here. In Colombia we are a rainbow...certainly more than the US, of black and white. How do you think those beautiful Calenas with their dark skin got to look like they do? They are black and white. They are mixed. We are a mixed people. Those calenas don't call themselves black and they don't call themselves white. THEY CALL THEMSELVES COLOMBIAN. And I wish gringos would stop trying to export their racial disharmony to Colombia. They have not even found a way to come any closer to resolving the problem in the US, so you can be sure, their solutions are not wanted nor needed in Colombia because their answers have not worked on their home turf!!!!

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viewpoint says on May 8, 2005, 08:36:

Are Colombians Racist? A question not a statement Are Colombians Racist? Is a question being asked or response being solicted !!! He did not say or otherwise state "COLOMBIANS ARE RACIST" !!! Please note at the end of his question is a question mark (???) and not an exclamation point (!!!)

Even after expressing my opinion and observations I will state that I don't think anyone feels that the racism is deeply seated as a percentage of population in Colombia, but rather it's more structural racism that excludes the blacks from participating in the sharing of the economic pie of Colombia combined with upper strata established racism and/or non acceptance of blacks.

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 08:42:

a dumb question ! I remember be taught that there is no such thing as a dumb question.
I disagree. Anyone who goes to a country, and just because his misheard or misquoted what he heard a few other said, and then concludes that an entire country (He did say Colombians) is racist, is a dumb person.

How can you begin to justify such a stupid generalization??? Please answer that Viewpoint.

An intelligent person might have asked:

1. Is their a racism problem in Colombia
or
2. ARe some Colombians racists?


Are you getting my point?

I am Jewish, I know that many Christians hate Jews. Do you think I would think that all Christians hate Jews? Give me a break.

Again....Dumb question.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 8, 2005, 08:44:

Gomez, I have just one thing to say to you on this topic: you're absolutely right.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 09:01:

Desi.......................T-H-A-N-K Y-O-U !!!! When I first saw your post, I thought, "oh no...here we go."

So when I read your short but to the point language of agreement, ai felt relieved. whoosh. Now I will not be late going to my aunt for Mother's Day. This is a day to celebrate. I not only am on the same page is you, but I am agreeing with Platano too. Incredible.

I am out of here.....again Des....enjoy your Mother's day Swedish style, or Finish style, or if not either of those two, American style (USA for all you hypersensitive ones)

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platano says on May 8, 2005, 09:37:

G5 and Desi, have a great Mother's Day celebration! It is not everyday such agreement between Desi, G5, and Platano happens.

Plátano, el banano verde
Estudiante del Manual de Urbanidad y Buenas Maneras por Manuel Antonio Carreño
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 8, 2005, 10:07:

thank you, platano:)
Yes, it could be once in a lifetime thing that all three of us would agree on something, but let's hope not.

Mother's day is the last Sunday in May for "us" Swedes. Incidentally, it always falls right after the payday. Anyway, I'm well aware that most other countries celebrate the occasion today, including my mom in Finland.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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ARMacleod says on May 8, 2005, 10:30:

Prejudiced! Not necessarily racist. Racist? The thread appears to be targeted at black white people. This in itself shows racism, or perhaps we could say colourism?

I am sad to say that I have never met anyone in my life who is not a racist or prejudiced in some way or other. Look into your hearts and say to yourself, there is no race, creed or colour of people singularly or collectively, that I do not totally accept in every way. Can you say this?

If your answer is yes, then look to the east, the last time something like this happened, three wise men appeared.

I think at best what people can say is ‘there are some people to whom I have a general dislike but I accept all others' I think what we have here is a ‘selective preference of some above others' it is a mater of degree or intensity of love or even dislike of one over another.

Put simply, we are all prejudiced against some one, it is just how much or little that prejudice is shown (or admitted to) that is in question.

Me? I am free of all prejudices, I hate everyone equally. (Anon)

Pax vobiscum. James.

Ps. I will get back to you soon ref the pm K1.Gracias.

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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npaul says on May 8, 2005, 11:34:

Donate to the United Negro College Fund. I just saw their ad yesterday calling themselves Negros and asking for money trying to play the sypathy card.

Reality is, in all countries, people prefer white to negro. In Colombia they want to whiten their blood lines and have babies with blue eyes. This is the prevailing attitude in all countries around the world, except maybe for Mid and South Africa.

So make the best of what you are, including race. I take advantage of the fact I am white. If you are not white, try playing race in your favor. OJ Simpson sure did!

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VanMan says on May 8, 2005, 11:48:

i tried to wash the yellow off but all i see is red, not white "Reality is, in all countries, people prefer white to negro. In Colombia they want to whiten their blood lines and have babies with blue eyes. This is the prevailing attitude in all countries around the world, except maybe for Mid and South Africa."

Yes, damn. I've been trying to white myself forever and it never works. I tried using white-out but it smells and is crusty. I tried paint, well similar result. I tried scrubbing my yellow skin off but all i see is red not white.

Someone help me get white!!!

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poco says on May 8, 2005, 11:58:

No Fear - Salvation is Upon us Want to see REAL RACEISM,,, have look.

http://www.house.gov/roybal-allard/press/pr040514.html

Lucky for us we are being saved in the U.S. by this Congressional Member. What happens if it spreads to Colombia?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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ARMacleod says on May 8, 2005, 11:59:

VanMan You need to be whitened up? Keep reading zumi, kerry london male etc , you will be whitened, also frightened, shitened, not enlightened, or brightened.

Live dangerously man.

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 8, 2005, 12:07:

then again you could go to a country where everybody is pitch-black and certainly you would pale by comparison.
Cheers,
Desi
(not white either)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 8, 2005, 12:14:

"and they call us 'personas de color'? We're black, which means absence of color. It's all those who call themselves 'white' but are beige, tan, pink, yellow, brown who should be called 'personas de color'!"

Just something I heard in Colombia from a black person.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Rubiazo says on May 8, 2005, 13:10:

I was reading a book recently by Raul Canizares. The book was on "Santería" but it had an excellent chapter on race relations in the Americas (North, South, in between, etc.)

American racism is the most OVERT form of racism. People here have a long tradition of speaking their minds regardless of what others may think (which obviously has its good and bad sides). Also, here, we have a 'one drop makes a whole' philosophy. So if you have ANY African ancestry at all, you are 'black.' If you don't (or are able to dissimulate it), you are 'white'. It's a binary system.

In Latin America, they have different tiers, if you will, of race. This is based on the systems the French, Spanish, and Portuguese put in place. This is also why you have so many different words describing race in Spanish and Portuguese, like mulato, moreno, tregeño, moreno claro/oscuro, indio claro/oscuro, zambo, cocolo, rubio, mono, guero, mestizo, misteco, etc. So the racism may well still be there, it is just more subtle and a lot harder to quantify.

Also, 'black' people are not the only targets of racism. Countries that have relatively few 'black' people often cite the USA as being racist but they turn a blind eye as to how they treat the 'indios'. This was definitely the case in my native town of Winnipeg. Even being Metis there (mestizo) makes you suspect in some circles and being full-out Indian marginalizes you. But somehow in people's eyes that doesn't count as racism.

Also, if you're looking for the country where people of all skin colors have the same opportunities in life, I think you're probably wasting your time. Even in deepest darkest Africa, the lighter your skin is, the more opportunities you have. It's just an unfortunate reality that people think that way. I know lots of musicians who think that black people are inherently better drummers than white people too, which is another load of crap!

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tampadavid says on May 8, 2005, 13:30:

Are Colombians Racist? I am planning to go to Colombia soon to host some video lighting seminars and was wondering about several things. Do Colombians hate white americans..am I safe in clubs etc...I also hear warnings about kidnappings.

How hard will it be to get a working visa and all my lighting gear in and out of the country? Will it be safe?

I have heard about the wonderful women...how will I know if they like me, or just want a free pass to the USA?

Any insight would be wonderful. Thanks, david

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on May 8, 2005, 13:51:

But on whole Racism does exits in Colombia. and the coast of Colombia is the worst.

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Lionheart says on May 8, 2005, 15:36:

not just in Colombia ... it seems a general way of life in Latin America. Similar forms of racism exist in the other countries as well, like the usage of negrita/negrito as a term of endearment, just like being called a monkey, monito/monita, and many other animals and races.

What I see almost worse in Latin America is the mix of racism and nationalism, listening to many Latin people put down other Latinos from other nations, incorperating racsim often, also between Latino groups in the USA. I heard at least 3 Colombianias say that Peruanas are no good, because they are all indias, which isn't true, of course. I heard the same from a woman in Chile about Peruanas. And the list goes on... these comments all happened when I was looking around which country would be best for my business plans. I will not repeat here what Colombianas said about Dominicanas.

I need to side with Tinto here, I have no clue what Gomez was talking about.

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 18:40:

Tinto Your bias due to your relationship with co moderator Lionheart renders your opinion regarding where I obtained my Law degree insignificant. Of course "hitting below the belt" about the quality of my law degree, only adds to that assertion.

Additionally are you starting to be like some of these other people who read a line or two and then enter a thread without reading and UNDERSTANDING what I wrote? You appear to be as such. I never said, never at all, what someone meant to say. I read simple English. I do think a BA and and Juris Doctorate along with passing a bar exam at least gives me the qualifications to say I can read and UNDERSTAND what is written here. Don't you? I said that if someone asks in the tone that that this fool asks "Are Colombian racists", that by definitions means he was implying that ALL Colombians are racists. If you don't see that, then you need to take a basic course in logic.
If you are Colombian, then you too should have been offended by such a stupid question. If you were not, then you need more than a course in logic. Lionheart, without explanation as to why, said, sided with this prejudice person. What gets me even more irritated about your response, is the fact that you know that each and every one of my entries was correct in that it is perfectly acceptable to call someone a negra and not be racist. Everyone else said the something. But you, a Latino...I presume just let it slide, and did not say a word when this fool implied that I had the mentality of a slave owner.

Yea Tinto, yea are good a finding statistics, but you are less than admirable when it comes to the political agenda that you exhibit, and the favorites characters that you choose to agree with. You and Lionheart, the two think alike, like Frick and Frack, will jump to the minority without reservation....nothing new there.

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 18:50:

Lionheart... You have no clue what I was talking about.....

That's funny. That is the best non response I have ever read here. If you don't want to engage me, that is your choice. But to say you don't know what I am talking about (even though everyone knows that you do/did)is a somewhat less than honest response.

I know I can be a lightening rod of controversy. I know I can say things that others don't want to hear. But nobody, nowhere, at any time in my college days or in the court room has ever accused me of writing something that could not be understood.

You sir are the first !! So maybe you just need to read my comments again, and I think like magic, you will understand all.

By the way, did you understand what I just wrote??

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kernow62 says on May 8, 2005, 20:09:

No entiendo.

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 20:56:

Kernow I just knew I just knew it would be only a matter of time before you chimed in. I swear you just look for any post that I make, no matter what it's about, and you are sure to add your 2 pesos.

What did you do while I was gone from here? Who took my place ??

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platano says on May 8, 2005, 20:58:

G5, Nobody can take your place. You are unique!

Plátano, el banano verde
Estudiante del Manual de Urbanidad y Buenas Maneras por Manuel Antonio Carreño
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Gomezman5 says on May 8, 2005, 21:07:

Thank Platano I'm getting that feeling such is the case....Lionheart and Tinto I am sure think the same of me :(

Actually Lionheart is a nice guy. Except we have been bumping heads lately.

Kernow.....he is a nice guy too. He just likes "yanking my chain."

And....you are cool. I really like everyone around here. I just get a little passionate sometimes and maybe...whatever...

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SingSling says on May 9, 2005, 03:20:

Back to the point Actually not many English speakers use the term 'nigger' it is really only used in the USA, I have almost never heard the word in the UK, Australia, New Zealand or Canada. Of course that is not to say that there is no racism in those countries just that the term is not used. I would guess that the original poster here missheard something that he translated into a more familiar word used in his particular culture.
As to whether Colombians are racist, well yes some are but that is not news, there are racists in every culture and, as has been pointed out here before, almost all cultures prize light skin more highly than dark skin.
The use of the terms Negra/Negrito etc are completely irrelevant, Colombians seem to use diminuatives everwhere without making much distinction as to whether they are relevant, I have seen and heard people resembling stick insects called Gordo/Gorda without batting an eyelid.

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kernow62 says on May 9, 2005, 04:34:

I remember the not very nice term "nig-nog" used in England.

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SingSling says on May 9, 2005, 04:43:

Ha ha Last time I heard that phrase was in a 70's sitcom, even then it wasn't in common usage, more a device for the show. The point being that the racist white guy was shown up in every episode.
Not to say that the English are uncommonly non-racist (although you do see more mixed race couples in London than almost anywhere in the world) just that the word 'nigger' isn't really used so they would not hear it (or rather mistakenly hear it)in Colombia in the way someone from the US might.

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kernow62 says on May 9, 2005, 04:51:

Yes, it is a bit dated. My mother used to use it I am ashamed to say.

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elmodefoque says on May 9, 2005, 05:12:

Let me answer this question as a possible recipient of such act, that if there is such a thing as racism in Colombia.
Are Colombians racist? Damn right those little yellow insignificant 3 piece suit assholes are racist, more so than most people living outside Manhattan. They are equally as racist as those selfish, Mexican hating, more tax breaks to the rich, send blacks, latinos and poor yahoos to die in some freaking desert while they get richer, REPUBLICANS!!. And I tell you why. Those conservadores (equivalent to republicans) are even more racist, because they blast Indios (me :)) and blacks with both barrels. Not only are they racist toward the shade of your skin but also hit you with social racism. There are places in Colombia where me or Renteria (Millionaire ball player) are still not allowed in and that sonamanbiche got millions, and I’m not talking miserable pesos, I’m talking dolares, el verde, el bonito. Ok, I aint got nothing but I thought that my blue passport might open doors, NOT! I was turned away from clubs in Bogotá, Cartagena and Barranquilla, was always given some lame excuse. I still remember one excuse ”the president is inside and we are only letting in members” while polo wearing, 5 feet tall colombianitos and their gringo chasing women walked right in. This did not happened 50 years ago, 20 years ago, try 3 months ago. Am I a bitter modefoque? Damn right I am! Do I or anyone in el barrio Santuario, Barranquilla lose any sleep when the FARC kidnaps their peso rich ass, hell no, I could not give a rats ass.
Good morning, damn, is a great day to be in the greatest city in the planet, NYC. What I love about this place is that we got ugly modefoques from every corner of the planet and you don’t like looking at our ugly faces, then take you ass to Long Island.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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fosth says on May 9, 2005, 05:28:

If you look back in 'British' history you'll find plenty of terms similar to 'Nig-nog' as these all date from a time when the British were slaughtering their way around Africa.
These were used to signify power over these people and nations but were born in a time of less education. Many things have changes since then. Many British are now ashamed of this history and find these words offensive. Like Kernow62, some ot the older memebers in my family use such words and it is difficult to hear. However Britain is a multicultural society due to the immigration of Africans,asians and West Indians in the 50's and 60's and better off for it.
Although there are racists and racist political parties in Britain it doesn't mean everyone is. I heard people being racist while in Colombia but i wouldn't taint everyone with the same brush, as like every other county it is only a very small minority of people.

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N2Aquatix says on May 9, 2005, 06:53:

The "N" Word Who gives a d at mn if they use the "N" word or not?!?! Racism isn't about a word, it's about an attitude. From what I've observed, the lighter skinned Colombians consider themselves to be better than the darker skinned ones. That constitutes racism. Case closed!!!

Jay

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Truth_In_Its_Rawest_Form says on Jun 15, 2005, 22:56:

Black Colombians The evasive and incessant excuses such as 'racism is everywhere', have become quite monotonous. Racism is everywhere, true. But there's a time when it must be addressed, a time when you stop ducking and dodging and sweeping it under the rug. Yes, the U.S. had Jim Crow laws, written laws. Colombia has Jim Crow laws, they're just not written. They're there, but they're not there. For example, there's no laws that say that blacks are not allowed on Spanish speaking television but do you see them there? NO. Do you see them working high profiled jobs or dining in fancy restaurants? That's why Latin America's racism is so incorrigible. There are drug dealers who are caught with drugs on them, and then there are drug dealers who are more clever, they know when to move, when to ditch the product. They're more evasive. But that doesn't mean they're not drug dealers just because they're not caught. I hate to use such a degrading metaphor but it fits nicely into what I'm trying to explain. The U.S.'s racism is more open and incidents are documented. If all of Colombia's racism had been documented what do you think it would be like? I wager it would look worse than the U.S. Atleast white Americans helped to change things. Look at the Woolworth Sit-In http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0310/12/wool.jpg A black girl is getting food poured on her for being in a whites only restaurant but her white civil rights friends are there with her and they are also covered in food for assisting blacks and associating with a black girl. How many white or mestizo Colombians are fighting to help the negros and indios gain their equality? None, because social mobility is everything in Latin America and associating with those who are not potential socialites are of no use to you. How many of you will even admit to the seriousness of the issue. Oh, you'll admit it's there, but you'll say 'it's not that bad'. It's there and it's extreme. I'd rather fight written laws than invisible ones, just as I'd rather fight a man I can see than an invisible one.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 15, 2005, 23:30:

what is it that everybody has against drug dealers anyway?

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toneloc24 says on Jun 16, 2005, 08:58:

Why does this shit keeping coming back up? Colombia has problems, some see them, some don't, some won't admit it.

It's very divisive. Can we at least agree on that and leave it alone unless you have a solution?

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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Rubiazo says on Jun 16, 2005, 21:05:

I think the real issue is, if you are black and have tons of money is it the same thing as being white with tons of money. Maybe there is no place on Planet Earth where this is true. I know of black friends that have had a great time in Amsterdam, others who literally couldnt get laid in the Red Light District with a fistful of Euros. Maybe in Colombia you'll be fine with the hos but might have a problem getting a seat in a nice restaurant.

I can say for CERTAIN that being black in the USA is NEVER the same as being white, no matter how big your bank account is. If i were black and came into even a little money, I'd be so out of here so fast without even thinking about it. There is racism in every law-enforcement agency here across the board. Not to mention, just TRY and be black and buy property in certain areas, or convince the co-op board of some nice Park Av building to let your black ass in, even if you could buy the fucking building a few times over!

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Dan81 says on Jun 16, 2005, 22:15:

HEY YOU ALL!!
I'M A COLOMBIAN FROM BUCARAMANGA THAT LIVES IN BUACARAMANGA, AND MAN IT MAKES MY LAUGH HOW YOU CREATED A PROBLEM FROM A SINGLE QUESTION THAT A GRINGO MADE. PEOPLE!!! HE JUST WANTED TO KNOW THAT THING, IF HE ASKED IT IS BECAUSE HE DIDNT KNOW IT AND BECAUSE RACISM IS A BIG DEAL IN THE US.

ANSWER: THERE IS A LITLE BIT OF RACISM IN COLOMBIA, BUT IS SO SMALL THAT IS NOT A BIG PROBLEM , MAYBE YOU CAN NOCITE IT IN THE HIGH SOCIETY, BUT IN THE MIDDLE AND POOR CLASS OF SOCIETY YOU DON'T SEE IT. THE ONLY DISCRIMINATION THAT YOU CAN SEE IS TO THE VERY POOR PEOPLEM, AND NOT ALWAYS.

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